Arrow length and tuning

[Klunk]

At the weekend I purchased some new limbs and I am trying to tune the bow with a bare shaft test. I followed the Easton bulletin No4 and also the tuning techniques in Rick McKinney's book The Simple Art of Winning.

I know there is another thread on this topic, which I have read completely, but I wanted to start a new thread because for one thing my arrows are coming up weaker and I have other questions to raise.

Firstly, how do I measure my arrow length? Is it from the end of the shaft (excluding the point) to the groove in the knock, or just the length of the shaft?

My setup is as follows:

Winstar riser
W&W medium Inno limbs (38# @ 68")
Bracing height 23.5cm (max recommended for the riser)
Tiller setting Top 19.5cm, bottom 19cm.
Arrows A/C/C 3-18 560 (what the charts recommend for 41-45lb on the fingers)
Draw length 29.5"
Fastflight string with 18 strands

I initially did a bare shaft test at 10yds and before I started adjusting anything I was showing a weak spine with the bare shaft hitting about 40cm to the right. I increased the button pressure and I can get the bare shaft to about 1-2" from the fletched groups but still showing weak. I am not sure of the exact poundage on the fingers as I dont have a gauge and nobody at the club had one yesterday. My old limbs were 42lb on the finger)

I then went to 20 yards and I am obviously showing a bigger weakness at this disctance. I was grouping ok, mainly in the gold on a 60cm face, with one end even giving me 3 in the x ring and I could not get them any tighter grouped without getting a Robin Hood

Now for my second question, I have my clicker at the leading edge of the extension plate. I am sure I can bring this back about 1/2", especially as the limbs are that much smoother, this will put the button nearer the point of the arrow. I know shortening the arrow will stiffen it but will extending the draw length help me in a similar way? If the button is not in the optimal position does that induce a 'bounce' type action when I release?

Thanks

Klunk

[darthTer]

Firstly, i would say that you need to measure the exact weight on your fingers. chances are its not to different from your estimate....but its worth finding out.

Secondly....trying to bare shaft tune @ 10yards isn't going to work too well. Its reported that the arrows don't start to straighten up til about 15-20m approx

If your testing @ 30m still shows the arrows to be weak, you could try cutting your arrows down slightly - in small increments - to try and stiffen them up slightly. You could also look at reducing point weight. I'm not 100% sure how much of a difference this would make, but it might be worth a shot.

One thing not to do is to try and force an increase in draw length. firstly this could completely wreck your current form, and secondly, its more likely to impact more energy into the arrow, and therefore make it behave even weaker....keep the DL as it i, but make the arrow shorter.

The other argument is that, if they are grouping well at various distances, leave it @ that and continue shooting.

[Klunk]

I have shot at a slightly longer DL in the past so I know I can do it. I was thinking along the lines that I have a known reference point for my current clicker position so I can easily go back to that, and its a little less permanent than cutting arrows. I was more thinking around the impact of a long arrow meaning my button was not working properly because the button is not aligned with the front node of the arrow, hence me struggling to get the tuning right.

[inkystu]

My 2p..... Drop BH to 22cm, take string to 20 strand, dont move clicker back, if you've stopped growing, shorten arrow by 1/4 inch at a time. The acc's should tune well from that bow, dont forget though the Inno limbs are fast so you may be able to take 1/2 turn off the limbs (if you're not already on minimum). Increasing draw length (by moving clicker back) will make arrows react weaker, despite nodes.

[Klunk]

Originally Posted by inkystu

My 2p..... Drop BH to 22cm, take string to 20 strand, dont move clicker back, if you've stopped growing, shorten arrow by 1/4 inch at a time. The acc's should tune well from that bow, dont forget though the Inno limbs are fast so you may be able to take 1/2 turn off the limbs (if you're not already on minimum). Increasing draw length (by moving clicker back) will make arrows react weaker, despite nodes.

I am not the best person whne it comes to terminology so can you explain what you mean by take 1/2 turn off the limbs?

In terms of nodes, I was more wondering if the button position was causing a false reading because the node starts off in front of the button, thereby causing the arrow to bounce off the rest/button a bit. According to the charts (and the shop where I bought the limbs) the arrows should be right for the setup.

[inkystu]

Originally Posted by Klunk

I am not the best person whne it comes to terminology so can you explain what you mean by take 1/2 turn off the limbs?

In terms of nodes, I was more wondering if the button position was causing a false reading because the node starts off in front of the button, thereby causing the arrow to bounce off the rest/button a bit. According to the charts (and the shop where I bought the limbs) the arrows should be right for the setup.

1/2 turn off the limbs = reduce bow weight by adjusting both 'tiller bolts' the same way (anticlockwise)
You are over thinking the node thing, there should be no bounce off a pressure button. The paradox will always bend the arrow into the button. The arrows will be the right spine if you cut them down bit by bit. That's the advantage of leaving them long to start with, if they react weak you can tune them in by shortening them in 1/4 inch steps. (you seem hesitant to do this, any reason why?)

[Klunk]

Originally Posted by inkystu

1/2 turn off the limbs = reduce bow weight by adjusting both 'tiller bolts' the same way (anticlockwise)
You are over thinking the node thing, there should be no bounce off a pressure button. The paradox will always bend the arrow into the button. The arrows will be the right spine if you cut them down bit by bit. That's the advantage of leaving them long to start with, if they react weak you can tune them in by shortening them in 1/4 inch steps. (you seem hesitant to do this, any reason why?)

Ah Ok, so that will also reduce the tiller and BH at the same time, or would it increase the BH?

I am hesitant at shortening the arrows atm, not that I wont do it. There are 3 reasons.

1. Its permanent and I cant stick it back on if it fails.
2. I dont have the equipment to do it and it will take me most of the day to get it done (1+ hour drive each way to get to the shop)
3. I have shot with the clicker further back for a while but moved it forward because I was struggling to get through with my challenger limbs, these limbs are smoother and easier to draw so I think I should be able to get to the original position and I am able to shoot far more arrows with them so fatigue does not seem to be a factor.

If I moved the clicker back and struggled to shoot a full round without fatigue then I would certainly look at cutting the arrows.

I certainly welcome the suggestion, but at this stage I want to eliminate other factors before I take this action.

[darthTer]

Originally Posted by Klunk

3. I have shot with the clicker further back for a while but moved it forward because I was struggling to get through with my challenger limbs, these limbs are smoother and easier to draw so I think I should be able to get to the original position and I am able to shoot far more arrows with them so fatigue does not seem to be a factor.

If I moved the clicker back and struggled to shoot a full round without fatigue then I would certainly look at cutting the arrows.

I certainly welcome the suggestion, but at this stage I want to eliminate other factors before I take this action.

You were probably fatigued due to poor form. If the clicker is set correctly for you at the moment, leave it where it is. Moving it will only lead to problems. The new limbs may be smoother, but there is still the same weight as before. If your form is wrong, it doesn't matter how smooth the limbs feel to draw, you will still struggle.

Your options are really:
1) Slow the arrows down. Either by increasing the strands in the string, winding out the limbs & therefore reducing poundage or increasing overall arrow weight.

2) Try trimming a couple of your arrows in small increments to stiffen them up. and alter clicker position accordingly

The biggest problem with option one is that by slowing things down, you may struggle to reach further distances. With option 2, the main problem is that you can't add bits back on if you cut too much (hence the small increments).

Good luck...

[Klunk]

Originally Posted by darthTer

You were probably fatigued due to poor form. If the clicker is set correctly for you at the moment, leave it where it is. Moving it will only lead to problems. The new limbs may be smoother, but there is still the same weight as before. If your form is wrong, it doesn't matter how smooth the limbs feel to draw, you will still struggle.

Your options are really:
1) Slow the arrows down. Either by increasing the strands in the string, winding out the limbs & therefore reducing poundage or increasing overall arrow weight.

2) Try trimming a couple of your arrows in small increments to stiffen them up. and alter clicker position accordingly

The biggest problem with option one is that by slowing things down, you may struggle to reach further distances. With option 2, the main problem is that you can't add bits back on if you cut too much (hence the small increments).

Good luck...

Form did have an impact on my fatigue, something I have worked on over the last couple of years, along with general fitness. An hours circuit training a week has done wonders for my core and upper body strength.

I will try reducing the poundage first as hitting 90m has never been an issue for me. It might make it easier for me to get the arrows out of the boss as well, even at 70 yards the get 'stuck' and need a lot of force to pull them.

If all else fails I will do the permanent thing and shorten the arrows

At the moment I just want to get consistent grouping and a reasonable setup before we go back outside.

Thanks for the help guys, it is very much appreciated.

[Klunk]

Well I spent 2 hours last night trying to get his right.

I fiddled and I changed and things got better, not quite there though, the bare shaft still indicates a slight weakness, but its about 3cm to the right of the group.

At the end of the evening I rechecked everything and the bracing height seems to be exactly the same, despite measuring it taking 10 turns out of the string, shooting and then remeasuring it.

[Whitehart]

Originally Posted by Klunk

Well I spent 2 hours last night trying to get his right.

I fiddled and I changed and things got better, not quite there though, the bare shaft still indicates a slight weakness, but its about 3cm to the right of the group.

At the end of the evening I rechecked everything and the bracing height seems to be exactly the same, despite measuring it taking 10 turns out of the string, shooting and then remeasuring it.

Did you put tape on your bareshaft what distance were you shooting - tape and 20 yards and that should be OK until you get outdoors and check how they fly.

[Klunk]

Originally Posted by WhitehartFB

Did you put tape on your bareshaft what distance were you shooting - tape and 20 yards and that should be OK until you get outdoors and check how they fly.

Yes 20 yards last night with tape on the bare shaft. I do actually use the same arrows indoors and out, therefore I have small fletchings. I will recheck when I get outside.

[greysides]

Brass nock locaters and a longer serving may help. Or, as a last fine tuning option, increase BH slightly.

[Klunk]

Well on Friday I finally got to a reasonable tune, could do with a little stiffer but the unfletched hits about 6:34 below the group. I wound the bow down to the lowest poundage (41 on the fingers) and made the button firmer. I shot a reasonable Portsmouth today (545) but I let nerves get to me as it was my first open competition in 3 years, but I am happy because I galvanised the club into getting enough archers entered for the team event and we won

I expect to see my grouping and shots improving over the next few weeks and if I want to go a little stiffer I may increase the strands on the string to 20 to see how that goes. On which note, for a 68" bow what length should I make the string before adding any twists?

Oh and nobody answered my question on how to measure arrows.

[greysides]

Originally Posted by greysides

Brass nock locators and a longer serving may help. Or, as a last fine tuning option, increase BH slightly.

Got that wrong. As inkystu says above...decrease BH. Sorry.

(Doesn't seem to be an 'edit' choice available)