Centre Shot question

[tak160]

Hey all,
I've been out shooting today at my local club and was checking to see whether my equipment was all set up correctly. All seemed fine until I asked a coach to look at my centre shot. He told me to adjust my botton until only half my pile is showing to the left of my string (right handed archer). Originally, I had it set up like it said in the archers reference so that the whole diameter is outside the string with the joint of the pile to the shaft just touching the string. I didn't argue with him so now I've changed it.
My question is, where do you put your centre shot and what effect does it have if I place it too far or too close to the raiser? Will either of these positions do?

[Murray]

The AR is is simple guide for basic setup. Half the point is usually sufficient, but it's harder to describe to someone reading a manual

I really must update it sometime, but yes go with what your coach is saying. It'll move your group a little to the right, but that's ok.

[DenzilS]

There is no fixed best position. Somewhere between half and a whole arrow width to the side is OK for a first setup.

The best position is the one that works best for you. The characteristics of your bow, the arrow spine, and your technique will all affect how the arrow flies. Hopefully your coach knows what he is doing and is adjusting it in response to how the arrow flies rather than his own fixed idea of where it should be!

[JohnR]

I coach a young archer who has the pile of the arrow inside the string. Everytime we re-tune I start with half a pile outside, and after bareshaft at different distances and checking group sizes, it always comes back to just inside the string. I can't explain that - can anybody? But it doesn't worry me, and it doesn't worry him, so no problem.

Half a pile outside is a good starting point, that's all.

John

[LunkShooter]

I've often wondered about this. After bareshafting I've ended up a pile and a half outside the string.


Is the Archer's Paradox governed by the angle of the arrow relative to the plane of thrust? If so, the distance between pile and string will rise with arrow length? If not, a really long arrow will be much closer to centre than a short one for the same pile-string distance.

[Jerry Tee]

Originally Posted by tak160

Hey all,
I've been out shooting today at my local club and was checking to see whether my equipment was all set up correctly. All seemed fine until I asked a coach to look at my centre shot. He told me to adjust my botton until only half my pile is showing to the left of my string (right handed archer). Originally, I had it set up like it said in the archers reference so that the whole diameter is outside the string with the joint of the pile to the shaft just touching the string. I didn't argue with him so now I've changed it.
My question is, where do you put your centre shot and what effect does it have if I place it too far or too close to the raiser? Will either of these positions do?

I do a walk back and adjust it after I have done a bareshaft tune.

[tak160]

Originally Posted by LunkShooter

I've often wondered about this. After bareshafting I've ended up a pile and a half outside the string.


Is the Archer's Paradox governed by the angle of the arrow relative to the plane of thrust? If so, the distance between pile and string will rise with arrow length? If not, a really long arrow will be much closer to centre than a short one for the same pile-string distance.

How do you find the best centre shot using bareshafts? I thought it was only used to find the pressure of the button and the nocking point position.
Also, concerning the second point, Simon Needham's book "The art of repetition" actually has something on this and tells you to initially set it up depending on the arrow length (p59 for those who have a copy). For my arrow length of 27 and a bit inches, it aught to be the same setup mentioned in the AR, which is why I wasn't too sure about what the coach was saying.
On a little aside on tuning, my bareshafts are now impacting at an angle pointing to the left, but it landed in the middle of the group of 6 fletched arrows (with another bare shaft just below it pointing the same way). The fletched arrows were straight(ish) but grouped in the gold at 20yards. Would I be right in saying that if I performed this test at a larger distance the bareshafts will drift further left? And is there a fix for this? There are loads of theories but i can't seem to find a definite answer.

As to walkback tuning, I would try it, but that would involve having a range to myself and I think it isn't worth the hassle seeing as I doubt it's going to affect my groupings very much (hopefully ).

[DenzilS]

Bareshaft tuning won't tell you whether to adjust the button pressure or the centreshot position. That is what walkback does.

Is there room on your range to shoot a separately? I mean, place your tuning target with at least 25 yards sideways clearance (off the top of my head - do check the rule book) from the next nearest target and they can be treated as two ranges. You can then ping away without disturbing anyone else.

[DenzilS]

Originally Posted by LunkShooter

...Is the Archer's Paradox governed by the angle of the arrow relative to the plane of thrust?...

Partly. Lots of things affect it - arrow stiffness, cleanliness of release and so on. The arrow is to the side, so yes, it is at an angle to the plane of the string, and the string will tend to rotate the front of the arrow outwards as it moves forwards, making the arrow fly to the left (for a RH archer).

But, the arrow also bends under the acceleration. The bending tends to rotate the pointy end inwards. If everything is matched and tuned properly, the two movements cancel out and the arrow settles quickly into flying straight forwards.

[tak160]

Originally Posted by DenzilS

Bareshaft tuning won't tell you whether to adjust the button pressure or the centreshot position. That is what walkback does.

Is there room on your range to shoot a separately? I mean, place your tuning target with at least 25 yards sideways clearance (off the top of my head - do check the rule book) from the next nearest target and they can be treated as two ranges. You can then ping away without disturbing anyone else.

I don't think it's possible. At the moment, we shoot in a long narrow stretch. With all the necessary bosses set up, there's only just enough room for people to walk across the field if they need to along one side.

In theory, could I just do the test using the bosses that are set out? Usually, there's a boss at maybe 60, 40 and 20 yards so if i shot a few groups at each distance without moving my sight and plotted the average, wouldn't that tell me whether my centre shot is off? They would shart drifting off from the central line where I'm aiming at. It probably won't tell me the pressure of my button I need, but I could probably find that out using bareshafts. It would be rather tedious, but at least I wouldn't be losing points at competitions on the first and second ends of each distance trying to get the windage right on the sight

[DenzilS]

Perhaps you could allocate an evening as a tuning session, so everyone can have a go?

Walkback is generally done at say 40 yards down to 10, at 5 yard intervals, on the same boss. The distance can be varied depending on the bow. A particularly fast bow might need a higher spread than a light bow to get the pattern spread over most of the boss. You want the shortest distance arrow near the top of the boss, then walk back five yards each time and shoot another, so the furthest distance arrow is near the bottom of the boss.

In theory, you could do it at different bosses, but you would need several at five yard intervals to see enough definition in the pattern. It also means moving from one boss to another, and it is best to have as few variables as possible.

You can't use bareshaft to tell you the button position with any certainty, because it can't differentiate between errors due to centre shot and errors due to spring tension. The walk back method will give some sort of pattern of arrows. Centre shot errors give a different pattern to spring errors, so it tells you which to adjust.

Having said all that, any tuning method will only give perfect results if you are a perfect archer! You need to be sure that any variation is due to the tuning and not just a slightly duff release or whatever. It is often a good idea to repeat the walkback to check the pattern is consistent before adjusting anything, or you'll get yorself tied up in knots. If the pattern is not consistent then just get the tuning roughly right and work on your technique.

[Jerry Tee]

If you have done your bare shaft tuning correctly and your starting point for the center shot is a couple of mm out then the only error left to show up on a walk back is center shot.

[tak160]

Originally Posted by DenzilS

Perhaps you could allocate an evening as a tuning session, so everyone can have a go?

I think I'm the only one that actually needs tuning having got back from uni. And most people are using compound at the club too so no centreshot problems for them.
My skill isn't all that great having only shot for nine months, but at least with a rough tune, the arrows won't deviate a lot from the centre of the boss between each distance and i won't have to worry about my windage. I was satisfied with a rough tune which I thought I had at the beginning until the coach told me to change the centre shot. it worried me slightly seeing as he shoots compound, hence why I started this thread .

Originally Posted by Jerry Tee

If you have done your bare shaft tuning correctly and your starting point for the center shot is a couple of mm out then the only error left to show up on a walk back is center shot.

Just out of curiosity, what is classed as a proper bareshaft tune? I have the bareshafts impacting directly in the middle of my groups at 20 yards but angled slightly to the left. Would that be good enough or would it be better to have them go in straight?

[Jerry Tee]

You can only tune as well as you can shoot. so bare shaft inside your best group. If a walk back is out of the question, then I would try moving the center shoot out a little and see if the bare shaft straightens out.

[DenzilS]

Originally Posted by Jerry Tee

If you have done your bare shaft tuning correctly and your starting point for the center shot is a couple of mm out then the only error left to show up on a walk back is center shot.

Not necessarily. Bareshaft only gives you a tuning point that works at one distance, so you could adjust either centre shot or spring and get apparently good tuning. It won't be far off either way, and will be good enough for most newer archers, but walkback may tell you you need to adjust both CS and spring. If it is hard to tell from the walkback pattern what needs adjusting, then adjust one thing first until you get a clearer slope or curve pattern, then adjust the other.