centre shot;inside or outside the string line?

[geoffretired]

In another thread in the recurve section, it was mentioned that some(not many) need to set their centre shot inside the string line in order to get good walkback results.
All set up instructions, I have read, start with the arrow point just outside the string line. I guess that on release, as the button compresses, the arrow front moves closer to the centre line.
I also guess, that on release, some arrows are launched, with the front part of the arrow not on the centre line.( some inside and some outside, possibly)
I wonder if, unknown to the archer, there are more arrows launched from the inside of the string line.
With arrows bending as they do on release,perhaps it is possible to get equally good results when centre shot is set up inside of centre, so long as the arrows perform on that setting.
Is the idea of setting up outside centre a throw back to the days before cut away sight windows, or is there proof that outside is better?

[cupra]

its to do with having the front and rear node points of the arrow in a direct line with each other when launched.

By off setting the arrow to the left for RH archers it allows the front node point to come into line with the rear node point after the arrow takes its first bend just after release.

A good way to set up the centre shot is to shoot the bare shafts at long ish distance and watch them as they come out of the bow.
If they look like they are flying sideways then the arrow has not been launched with the 2 node points in line.

for RH archers if the point is going right and the nock going left then the button needs adjusted out more, if the point goes left and the nock right then the button needs moved in more.

If the arrow is whipping back and forth then spring tension is all that needs adjusted

[geoffretired]

Thanks, Cupra, that's what I have always been lead to believe.
Having recently read about a few archers who get good results with the arrow set inside, it made me wonder if it is possible to reach that "node state" by using arrows that were not the "accepted " spine for the bow.
Having seen how much bend there is in some arrows at launch, I wondered if the odd m.m. here or there on the button, could be balanced with a different spine from normal.

[Whitehart]

Perhaps the difference in where people set their centreshot and especially outside what most would call the normal perameters, would suggest the wrong spined shaft.

[moo-mop]

The physics of arrow flight is more complicated than nodes (arrows have nodes but don't quite fly like that classic description you often see when they line up). However, yes, as I understand it basically the idea is that ideally the arrow comes out of the bow travelling, on average, in the way it is pointing. Therefore, as the button will depress, in order that the arrow is being pushed along that direction you need to have it outside the string. As to how to get it just so and how much difference it makes anyway I've seen no evidence.

[princejohn]

I have always been under the impression that the arrow point is set outside the string to allow for it to be running true to the target (nodes in line) after the string has come "around" the fingers i.e. the string pushes the fingers out of the way and in doing so curves around them slightly

[geoffretired]

Thanks for the replies.
WhitehartFB, I see what you are saying and under most circumstances I would agree.
But, what if we only put centre shot outside because bows with no over centre cut away forced us to work/think like that? What if arrows fly just as well when inside and using a different spine? Does different set up and different spine need to be "wrong"?
I am not saying you are wrong; I am wondering if there is this second option.

Moo-mop and princejohn, I think I understand the theories in the same way you explain. If it is possible to have centre shot set well outside( for reasons like spine or release ) could it not work to have centre shot set inside, perhaps for opposite extremes of spine/release?
I suppose in a nutshell I am wondering if going inside creates problems in every case; or is it more of a convention to set up outside.

[joetapley]

Is the idea of setting up outside centre a throw back to the days before cut away sight windows, or is there proof that outside is better?

Should know by now that there is no "proof" of anything in archery - only opinions and theories of varying plausibility

I've heard of archers who prefer to have the arrow inside the line by choice. Problem is that as you reduce center shot you have to increase the button spring pressure and having anything approaching a stiff button is always a bad idea (unforgiving). My take is that the conventional center shot set ups (Al and C/Al) is one that will give you a sensible spring tension.

Possibly the limited bow window depth of wooden recurve bows was the origin of the "tune arrows slightly stiff" idea. While by definition it's deliberately mis-tuning it did reduce the chances of bouncing the back of the arrow off the woodwork.

PS never bought the "arrow in line" theories, nodes or not. Launch alignment has very little effect on the arrow flight (until somebody comes up with any evidence to the contrary)

[Whitehart]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Thanks for the replies.
WhitehartFB, I see what you are saying and under most circumstances I would agree.
But, what if we only put centre shot outside because bows with no over centre cut away forced us to work/think like that? What if arrows fly just as well when inside and using a different spine? Does different set up and different spine need to be "wrong"?
I am not saying you are wrong; I am wondering if there is this second option.

.

My current centreshot is set the same for my FB as my Whitehart (and that is only just cut past centre) neither has clearance issues the difference is the reaction of the shaft. Personally I think it is about arrow flight and how the arrow seems to compensate for a less than perfect release when combined with the shock absorber effect of the button.

To set the centreshot inside the string I would suggest means that your shafts are too stiff. At full draw the arrow is also pointing to the right of the target and a poor release resulting in more bend and pressure on the button l moving it further to the right so a poor shot might make the end of the shaft for the short time that it is in contact with the button compress in too far, or make it bounce(if the spring is too stiff) and all the time not pointing in the right direction, meaning an adjustment to the sight, the shaft will also be closer to the riser making it more likely that the back end will hit something.

I also have in the back of my mind that the limbs/tips string and the archers line are pointing in one direction and the arrow would be going in another making the transfer of energy less efficient giving the vanes more work to do and sapping even more energy.

[geoffretired]

Thanks Joe, and Whiehart again.
I see what you are both saying. It does all make sense.
I suppose, if the inside set up was taken too far, the arrow might bend the wrong way first and completely lose contact with the button, almost from the instant it started to move forwards.
Cheers

[the idiots are winning]

i read this thread with interest but as a relative novice didnt understand the original question!!

Could some explain in simple terms what the problem was.....and furthermore what the solution seemed to be....?

thanks

[geoffretired]

In another thread it was stated that one archer(possible more) had the arrow set inside centre shot. Inside centre shot, means closer to the sight window than the centre line of the bow. Most archers set up the arrow so the arrow is pointing just outside the centre line of the bow, i.e. further from the sight window than dead centre.
My post was about setting up the arrow outside or inside the centre line.
My thinking is, the arrow, on releasing the string, presses onto the button which compresses the spring and in doing so, moves the front end of the arrow closer to the centre line. I continued along that train of thought and wondered if some arrows were actually compressing the springs in their buttons to the point where they were actually inside the centre line at the early part of the launch.I feel it is possible, and there isn't much evidence to show that it never happens.Perhaps then it is possible to get good groups and good arrow flight with an initial centre shot setting that is dead centre shot or even inside centre shot.It was suggested that "wrongW arrows might need to be set up inside centre to get decent results. I just wondered if the arrows were "Wrong" if they could be made to give good results by being set up inside centre. My final point was, perhaps setting up outside centre shot was a throw back to the longbow days when there was no option as the riser wasn't cut away to make a sight window.
So, it wasn't really a problem just me thinking aloud. If there was an answer, I guess it is that some manage to shoot well with arrows set up inside centre, but most set up outside centre.I'm keeping an open mind on this for now.

[joetapley]

Couple of points to bear in mind here:

1. The arrow is pushing on the button for only a few milliseconds near the beginning of say a 15 millisecond power stroke

2. The lateral force exerted on the arrow shaft by the button is effectively constant. (unless you make the mistake of having a stiff spring or even worse replacing the spring with a matchstick).

Reducing centre shot results re tuning in a stiffer spring. Conventional wisdom for centre shot position is the one that results in a sensible spring pressure (350-500 GM equivalent say). Too stiff a button and the shaft-button force becomes a variable (unforgiving) and starts to affect the bending of the arrow significantly. Too soft a button and the shaft can bottom out on the on the plunger barrel and you're back to the stiff spring problem. Centre shot has little, if anything, to do with arrow alignment.

[geoffretired]

Thanks Joe.
Does that mean that a setting inside centre shot makes life more difficult, or successful tuning /matching less likely; or would it mean using arrows that would not normally be a match if normal centre shot settings were used?

[Jerry Tee]

It is possible that we are not accounting for the 'tiddley wink' effect. If the arrows are slightly stiff for the bow then the archer will set the button soft and get a reasonable set up. If a stiff clicker is then introduced to the equation then we start to get the tiddley wick effect where the arrow point is flicked out as the point comes off the clicker, which is OK if the loose occurs at the same time on every shot. If not you will get horizontal spread. setting the center shot up inside the string will allow the archer to use a stiffer button, ( front node further to the right, RH archer). Stiffer button will mean that the clicker spring tension is less effective and therefore less tiddley wink effect.