Paper Tuning Woes

[Panserborn]

Hi all.

I realise this has probably been beaten to bone already but ...............

My indoor setup is a 29"DL proelite peaking at 59lbs and 2315 X7s with 200gr propoint pins. No matter what I do I always get a tear to the right on a paper tuning session. I know that indoors bullet holes aren't really required, but I'd still like to know why I can't centralise them.

I've tried to bullet-hole them by moving the launcher, reducing the point weight and shortening the arrows .................. always a right tear!

[Adam]

If you've cut it below about 32 inches, my guess would be that the arrow is too stiff. Try 220 grain or even 250 grain points.

Adam

[simon1977]

Despite popular opinion, stiff or weak arrows on a compound don't generally show up as a sideways tear unless there's another factor involved.

On Hoyt's I've generally found that sideways tears come down to one (or more) of the following things (assuming the rest and nocking point is set correctly).

Timing (if the timing is out on a cam 1/2 system (module flat edges hitting at the same time on the cables), it can bring this tear)
Torque (make sure that the hand is relaxed in the grip and not influencing the grip sideways)
Draw length (if the draw length is too long, it can cause a sideways tear (generally in conjunction with torque.))

[T101]

Originally Posted by Panserborn

Hi all.

I realise this has probably been beaten to bone already but ...............

My indoor setup is a 29"DL proelite peaking at 59lbs and 2315 X7s with 200gr propoint pins. No matter what I do I always get a tear to the right on a paper tuning session. I know that indoors bullet holes aren't really required, but I'd still like to know why I can't centralise them.

I've tried to bullet-hole them by moving the launcher, reducing the point weight and shortening the arrows .................. always a right tear!

another possibilty is i used to get this perpetual tear and it was down to my draw elbow being over rotated and some slight hand torque. didn't matter how much i changed arrows, centre shot etc. as soon as i brought my elbow into alignment however...bullet holes with my carbons and 2315/220g.

if u can ask someone to watch or take pic of your shooting position you can experiment with your alignment to see if it makes a diff.

[geoffretired]

Look at the alignment between arrow and long rod(looking down onto arrow) before you draw the bow. Then look at the alignment again at full draw. They should be aligned the same in both cases. If they aren't, chances are you are torquing the bow. By changing your hand position you should be able to get the same alignment in both positions.
Another thing to test is fletching contact; quite often it is the same one making contact and it sends the arrow off track in the same direction each shot.

[Marcus26]

You need to start from scratch
Get your centreshot aligned with your cams. You can do this visually. Now leave it alone.
Put your nock 1/8" above square
Now if you MUST shoot through paper and you get a left tear then look at your top cam. If it is leaning one way or the other then:
a) If you are using Hoyt's floating yoke then live with it
b) if you are using a split buss cable then twist up one of the yokes to straighten the cam

If you still get a left tear then you are likely torquing the bow.
If this is the case then hold it correctly.

[buzz lite beer]

one of our clubs compound archers had a similar problem but as he was left handed the tear was to the left, and it was entierly due to the fact he was drawing back too far and digging the string deep into the skin on his cheek, as you have a low holding weight on a compound the initial launch of the arrow and string can be more easily deflected from true if this sort of contact exists.

[Panserborn]

Thanks all, good info there.

When you talk about torque, is that "heeling" the bow too much on the handle or twisting the bow around the Axis between the two cams?

[Nightimer]

Heeling,is what it says.
You change the pressure point on the handle at the moment of release to the bottom of the hand.
This will often result in high arrows away from the group as heeling tilts the top limb back towards the archer.
Torque is as you say the "twisting" of the bow around the Axis if the cams.
Once again the main cause is hand position,tension and grip.
Other people will come up with more reasons I am sure,especially the torque issue.

Nightimer

[geoffretired]

Torque is the hand causing the bow to twist (so the long rod would move side to side)
Heeling the bow is also caused by the bow hand. Normally, the hand is pressing into the grip at the throat; heeling is pressing into the grip lower down than that.( with the "heel" if the hand.)

[Nightimer]

[QUOTE=simon1977;302416]Despite popular opinion, stiff or weak arrows on a compound don't generally show up as a sideways tear unless there's another factor involved.

I really agree with this.
I have found that once centre shot is set I can tune out spine issues using the spring tension on my Golden Premier rest.
All the high speed footage of compounds show arrows flexing in the vertical plane.
Very small amounts of horizontal plane movement.
This is because the arrow is being shot from directly behind (perfect centre shot).
So it would appear that the spring rest acts the same as a pressure button on a recurve (to assist with the flexing of the shaft).
Of course other forces come into place such as cam type,timing and correct nocking point.

[Panserborn]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Torque is the hand causing the bow to twist (so the long rod would move side to side)
Heeling the bow is also caused by the bow hand. Normally, the hand is pressing into the grip at the throat; heeling is pressing into the grip lower down than that.( with the "heel" if the hand.)

I see,

So, when I grip the bow, I slide the "web" between my thumb and my pointing finger right into the throat of the handle, position my knuckles at about 45 deg and relax the hand. I try to have none of my hand left of the lifeline in contact with the bow. Are there any general Do's and Don'ts with grip that can minimise torque other than these?

[geoffretired]

Panserborn, you are just about there.
One other aspect of placing the hand needs attention too.
Imagine, when you put your hand into the grip, as you have described, you keep the thumb stiff, yes? (I'm not saying keep it stiff, just imagine it is stiff as you place the hand) It is possible to move the hand, so the thumb points to the target or a bit to the right, and all the positions in between, yes?
If you shoot with the thumb pointing in the straight ahead position,you may or may not put some torque into the bow.
If you look down onto the bow( not drawn) with an arrow on the rest and fitted to the string, you can see how the long rod and arrow line up.( they may line up or not quite, but note the position of one against the other.
Then draw the bow, ready to shoot at a target, and see if the arrow still looks to be lined up with the long rod,in the same way. If the arrow seems to have changed compared to the long rod, try pointing the thumb in a different direction next time you put the hand into the grip. See if the change makes the arrow line up better than before. Experiment till the arrow doesn't seem to move compared to the long rod. Then use that direction for pointing the thumb, for each shot.

[Panserborn]

Never really gave much thought to the thumb position - thanks for that! Got training today so will carry out those experiments. Got the Irish Nationals at the weekend so if it was worth a few extra points then happy days!

[T101]

been reading "advanced archery" literature recently and it suggested that the thumb should be pionting towards the target and level. the reason being if u lift it up/down/left/right it creates tension in the thumb and back of hand/thumb section that leads to wrist, which ideally is un wanted. i tried it out and indeed found this to be the case. so b careful with this.